Pope Phobe CXLIII

[talktooloose]

Lest we get all dewey about these sweet celibate old men in the cute robes:

Background on Ratzinger from the Outrage website.

In 1986, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the infamous Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons. Ratzinger wrote that a homosexual orientation, even if the person is totally celibate, is a "tendency" toward an "intrinsic moral evil". Moreover, a homosexual inclination is both an "objective disorder" and a "moral disorder", which is "contrary to the creative wisdom of God". "Special concern and pastoral attention should be directed towards those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not." Ratzinger's 1986 Letter concludes that pastoral care for homosexual persons should include "the assistance of the psychological, sociological and medical sciences", and that "all support should be withdrawn from any organisations which seek to undermine the teachings of the Church, which are ambiguous about it, or which ignore it entirely".

In July 1992, the Vatican issued a further proclamation authorised by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and by Pope John Paul II, entitled "Some Considerations Concerning the Catholic Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons".

This document was designed to mobilise Catholic opinion against equal rights legislation for lesbians and gay men. It describes homosexuality as an "objective disorder" and a "tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil". Rejecting the concept of homosexual "human rights", it asserts there is "no right" to homosexuality; adding that the civil liberties of lesbians and gay men can be "legitimately limited for objectively disordered external conduct".

While condemning "unjust" discrimination, the Vatican document says that some forms of antigay discrimination are "not unjust" and may even be "obligatory": especially with regard to "the consignment of children to adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or coaches, and in military recruitment".

Most shocking of all, the 1992 document suggests that when lesbians and gay men demand civil rights, "neither the Church nor society should be surprised when ... irrational and violent reactions increase".

This implies that by asking for human rights, lesbians and gay men encourage homophobic prejudice and violence: we bring hatred upon ourselves, and are responsible for our own suffering. The Catholic Church, it seems, blames the victims of homophobia, not the perpetrators.

Actually, I find the last paragraph's analysis a bit peurile and fails to say what needs to be said. The Church's quote is a simple statement of fact. It is true that people bring violence upon themselves over and over throughout history by demanding rights. After all, by asking for rights, you are asking for some part of the locus of power to be shifted from others to you.

What is actually heinous about the bald statement is what it doesn't say. It does not state that all violence of this sort goes against the spirit of God and the Church and will not be tolerated. By omitting this, the Church is effectively saying that it will do nothing to condemn such violence. It is saying that bashing those seeking queer rights is not sinful.

Comments

Pope Adolph I

[manny-script.livejournal.com]

There weren't any good choices in this regard but the Rat is definitely one of the worst. The R.C. Empire has shown it's true nature and won't be able to hide behind the facade of a man whose public face was so amiable to so many. The fact that the Old Men in Drag made the selection so quickly is an indication of where the power lies. The only consolation is that they will continue to alienate more and more reasonable people who still cling to the Church as the vehicle for love and reonciliation in the world.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

Heh! May I offer this reply as exhibit 1 to anyone who denies your angry side?

I called this days ago. The Church showed major gains under CEO JPII, largely in the developing world where a paternalistic, orthodox church is the recipe for success. It's all about bums in pews, people and so the Vatican isn't likely to put any reformers in.

It's time we stopped seeing the Pope and the head office of RC as some kind of either moral authority or benign and quaint parade float. It is time we stop calling a Catholic youth convention in Toronto "World Youth Day" and supporting it with government money. It is time we stopped funding Catholic schools in Canada (instead of starting to support more religious schools with public monies).

Fuck organized religion in general, I say.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[ladykutenay.livejournal.com]

I was with you until the last sentence. Saying "let's do this Separation of Church and State thing RIGHT" and "Fuck organized religion" are two hugely different things, and the second seems just a little too dismissive of, like, the vast majority of the world.

But I understand your anger, I think.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

You're right, I slipped from angry but sensible into a stand-alone sentiment. The ideas of spiritual life and large bureaucratic power structures going together doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[ladykutenay.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. It doesn't work for me either.

It just scares me when it seems like not privileging organized religion starts to slip over into active discrimination. Gazillions of brillant, productive, interesting, non-evil people are involved in organized religion.

Yes, GAZILLIONS.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[snowmit.livejournal.com]

Organized religion invented human suffering. INVENTED HUMAN SUFFERING. Also I heard that it made out with Suzy Jerkins behind the bleachers. And I'm pretty sure that it owes me $50.00

GIVE ME BACK MY MONEY, POPE.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

Damn! She was also making out with Objective Positivism at the sockhop and Existentialism at the malt shoppe.

Whose class ring would you wear.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

Yes, including one man I know who works for Catholic Children's Aid as a social worker and will counsel abortion when it is an appropriate option for the client to consider. Lots of quiet heroes out there.

I just don't understand why you would willingly submit to the institution unless you like to have someone make your decisions for you or you wish to rise in the power structure.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[ladykutenay.livejournal.com]

You don't have to "willingly submit" to be involved in an institution.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

You do unless your values and actions fall under the code of conduct which, in the case of the RC Church, you're supposed to confess about weekly and are sent to big barbecue at the centre of the Earth for not following.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[ladykutenay.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure we're not going to totally agree on this.

Which is cool.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

So are you.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[ladykutenay.livejournal.com]

Yay!

ICE-CREAM ALL ROUND

Re: Pope Adolph I

[snowmit.livejournal.com]

Yes it's true! Institutions are bad and have never contributed anything to society! We should make every decisions fresh and anew without any outside context or history! No one who has come to a decision or invented a method before us has ever been wiser than us! Individuals are not capable of making poor choices, it is only when they form into groups and the groups last longer than the lifetime of an individual that things go awry! Everyone's relationship with God should be direct and unmediated and personal! People who are involved in the Catholic Religion never hold debates or discussions, they are a homogenous group of people with identical views! In fact, the entire election process was a sham because ALL OF THE CATHOLIC CARDINALS THINK EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. There is no internal controversy in the church AT ALL.

Also, all Americans agree with President Bush. We know this because he was elected and the guy who gets elected is a perfect miror of his electorate. Everyone who has remained in America is a flag waiving blind patriot with a shrine to Rumsfled.

All Canadians are secrelty waiting for their sponsorship money.

A big pile of Catholics areed with you one time, by the bye. It was called the Reformation and the result was the splintered Christianity (including Fundamentalism and including The United Church) that we see today. But I guess some Catholics decided to try to, you know, remain participants in a system that they saw as being overall good, this lead to the Counter-Reformation where the Church redid some stuff and fixed some things.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[snowmit.livejournal.com]

PS: "Rumsfled" hee!

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

Also, this thread name that mannyscript stuck us with is funny in relation to corduroyarmy's post today about "worse than Hitler".

Re: Pope Adolph I

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

Stop poking holes in my windbag, you sensible person! I'm working in a too-hot office without windows.

(looks up to see if this empty plea for mercy got him anywhere)

(sees Snowmit waiting patiently for response. tries diversionary tactic)

Wanna go see LCD Soundsystem with me on May 21? I have to buy tickets on the way home.

(sighs)

Insitutions whose bottom line rationale is "God said so and therefore it's not open to debate" make me very nervous and with good reason. Especially when people hate me and endanger me because of these intangible bottom-lines. I also firmly believe that corruption is inevitable and more pronounced the larger the bureaucracy. And even more pronounced when the final word of argument before the clenched fist falls is "god said so!"

And yet, as you say, people create amazing things when they work together within empowering frameworks (and sometimes when working within narrowly restrictive frameworks if they find a place to hide).

But remember, organizations also crush the wheels so that they need to reinvented again and again. Or they allow the wheelmaking technology to be lost because it does not gain them anything in the immediate future to record it. Or, or, or.

The UN can't address AIDS in Africa without a large, multi-lateral structure.

But, you can't make The Day After Tomorrow without a huge entertainment company behind you. And that would be a good thing.

Re: Pope Adolph I

[ladykutenay.livejournal.com]

Hurray for re-invention and change!

Pope Phoebe CXLIII

[allourapus.livejournal.com]

That's what I originally read. Oooh, I thought: a female Pope.

Re: Pope Phoebe CXLIII

[talktooloose.livejournal.com]

Pope Poebe Clutzy.

I am wearing the Andean cross you gave me today. Someone just asked what it's made of. Do you know?

Re: Pope Phoebe CXLIII

[allourapus.livejournal.com]

I think it's called Serpentine. I may be making that up. It's a material that there's a lot of around Machu Picchu. I'll ask someone who knows for sure, and I'll give you a definitive answer.

Love,
AOA

Re: Pope Phoebe CXLIII

[karenkay.livejournal.com]

Serpentine is the California State Rock. http://www.consrv.ca.gov/cgs/information/publications/cgs_notes/note_14/note_14.pdf

I have no idea what my state rock is.

[corduroyarmy.livejournal.com]

I'm actually a bit miffed about this one.. He was pretty much at the bottom of my personal pope list. I guess that's just another way the people behind the church have ..I almost said gone astray, but I guess I mean 'stayed exactly the same'. Just another example of a good idea ruined by the human element. I'm Catholic myself, but kind of leave the church alone and do my religion thing solo. The people running it are just men, and have the same weaknesses we all have and so the end result is a halfassed result. Ironically, kind of the same as Communism. good in theory, but until we get a robot pope, equally impractical.

Bank account depleted 2c.